Lil' Blackbox

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: anothernord on December 29, 2015, 08:12:30 AM

Title: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: anothernord on December 29, 2015, 08:12:30 AM
Alright, I've finished my engine integration and most of the wiring.  Time for a build thread!  I'm a total newbie to Arduino but I'm fairly good at figuring stuff out. 

Vehicle:
2001 Tacoma 4x4 - 260,000 miles
3.4L 5VZ-FE
Spearco FMIC

20x4 LCD I2C display
Arduino Uno rev 3
10k pot for experimentation
LBB (of course)

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p310/anothernord/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0303.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/anothernord/media/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0303.jpg.html)

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p310/anothernord/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0305.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/anothernord/media/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0305.jpg.html)

Switch panel for whatev (VGT relay power is the switch with the cover)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p310/anothernord/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0295.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/anothernord/media/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0295.jpg.html)

I already have weatherpak connectors around , so I switched the turbo to match.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p310/anothernord/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0284.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/anothernord/media/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0284.jpg.html)

For my own reference:

Vane max position (fully closed)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p310/anothernord/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0308.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/anothernord/media/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0308.jpg.html)

Van min position (fully open)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p310/anothernord/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0307.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/anothernord/media/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0307.jpg.html)

Temporary LBB mounting + pot knob for manual adjustment of the actuator.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p310/anothernord/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0300.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/anothernord/media/5VZ-FE%20HE351VE%20Turbo%20Build/KIMG0300.jpg.html)

Last night I found that the first time I put the turbo together, I didn't get the vanes fully engaged, so they wouldn't slide all the way into the scroll.  So I've got some recalibration to do. 

The gas engines requires a little more control than the out of the box program, so I'll be wiring in RPM and TPS to map compressor speeds based on variables along those two axes. 
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: Rx7man on December 29, 2015, 09:06:05 AM
Nice job on the install!

Is the factory ECU still doing the fueling? How is it going to add fuel under boost?  I like the project :)

Here's something for you to try.. slow down the VGT updates, there seem to be 2 different styles of these turbos.. some need updates every couple milliseconds before they "fail", others (mine) can go for as long as 75ms between updates.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: hakcenter on December 29, 2015, 09:23:34 AM
You're also talking a 3.4L vs a 5.9L diesel, you may want to just bump the whole curves up by 2cm

And your default curve is set to 1, http://wiki.lilbb.com/v1_1#turbo_rpm_curve
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: anothernord on December 29, 2015, 11:19:18 AM
Quote from: hakcenter on December 29, 2015, 09:23:34 AM
You're also talking a 3.4L vs a 5.9L diesel, you may want to just bump the whole curves up by 2cm

And your default curve is set to 1, http://wiki.lilbb.com/v1_1#turbo_rpm_curve

I'll give that a go.  This engine hardly uses any air at idle, so the turbo RPM sometimes gets so low that the signal drops out.  I might try shimming the sensor (I forget if you have to move the sensors out or in for low-speed drop-outs)

Quote from: Rx7man on December 29, 2015, 09:06:05 AM
Nice job on the install!

Is the factory ECU still doing the fueling? How is it going to add fuel under boost?  I like the project :)

Here's something for you to try.. slow down the VGT updates, there seem to be 2 different styles of these turbos.. some need updates every couple milliseconds before they "fail", others (mine) can go for as long as 75ms between updates.

Thanks!  The factory ECU is still doing fueling.  It's MAF-based so it tolerates some boost no problem.  The factory ECU was designed for the TRD supercharger so it does fine under low-boost.  Eventually I'll get a piggyback. 

And that adjustment is changed through the timer, correct?  I'll have to look over the code again when I get home to see. 
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: me78569 on December 29, 2015, 04:13:15 PM
My turBo also doesn't care if you don't update the positin every 2 ms.  I haven't tested the time it takes to reset but 75ms seems pretty close.

I still update my pos every 2 ms but I never move the vanes more than 5 + -.  Seems to steady out the drive pressure some.

As for reading low rpm I would just take your idle position smaller, shouldn't be any need to adjust the sensor position.  Mine reads 1k without any issue.  If you idle speed isn't above 10k I would think you would run into some off idle lag.

What's your current idle position?
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: anothernord on December 29, 2015, 09:49:56 PM
Quote from: me78569 on December 29, 2015, 04:13:15 PM
My turBo also doesn't care if you don't update the positin every 2 ms.  I haven't tested the time it takes to reset but 75ms seems pretty close.

I still update my pos every 2 ms but I never move the vanes more than 5 + -.  Seems to steady out the drive pressure some.

As for reading low rpm I would just take your idle position smaller, shouldn't be any need to adjust the sensor position.  Mine reads 1k without any issue.  If you idle speed isn't above 10k I would think you would run into some off idle lag.

What's your current idle position?


Well I got a couple things figured out - the actuator wasn't actually doing anything - I had some embarrassing wiring errors, and I didn't get the vanes fully seated in that scroll-ring.  I fixed that stuff and now I can get the vanes closed enough to get the idle speed above 3-4k, at which point it read pretty well, at least when it's warm.  I work for a turbo company and we have similar issues when there's bad sensors, or they're not dialed in just right,

I mapped the position to a 10k pot just for fun and found that the actuator's range sees to be 40-840, so I'm wondering if the actual mechanism needs to be adjusted since it seems from the common code that 40-940 is expected.  As far as I can tell, the vanes do close completely at an indicated position of ~840, as told by the exhaust note really quieting down.  I tested this without the actuator installed and you really have to push the arm all the way to get the exhaust note to change, so that's reassuring. 

I first tried updating position as fast as the clock on the unit, which the actuator didn't like.  Now it's sitting around 50 ms, which makes everything buttery smooth. 

Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: hakcenter on December 30, 2015, 07:50:44 AM
Try to reset your unit position.

Under Set Position

byte data[] = { lo_byte, hi_byte, 0x01, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF }; // data message with an added counter

to

byte data[] = { lo_byte, hi_byte, 0x02, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF }; // data message with an added counter


While the vehicle is running, it should open the vanes all the way, and sometimes shut the turbo off requiring a power reboot.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: Rx7man on December 30, 2015, 10:30:01 AM
Quote from: me78569 on December 29, 2015, 04:13:15 PM
My turBo also doesn't care if you don't update the positin every 2 ms.  I haven't tested the time it takes to reset but 75ms seems pretty close.

I still update my pos every 2 ms but I never move the vanes more than 5 + -.  Seems to steady out the drive pressure some.

I update mine often, but only update the commanded position every 20ms.. I could try slowing that down, but I have too many things that depend on it and changing that would just mean I have to start tuning all over again.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on January 05, 2016, 05:48:31 PM
I'm sure you will need a external wastegate.
If i'm getting 5psi at 2500 rpm on a 2.3l. can't wait to see how fast your setup spools.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: hakcenter on January 05, 2016, 06:12:46 PM
you would be surprised. These come stock in 6.7 diesels. 25cm^2 is a huge housing lol.

The posted logs are what is so surprising. Barely any updates, and just positions that don't seem to make sense, which would suggest to me either their RPM counter doesn't work that great or the motors don't produce that much wasted energy in the exhaust anymore.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on January 05, 2016, 06:47:37 PM
oh i know but there is something different with gas engines they just spool turbos alot better. did a spool check the other day at 50 down shifted to second rpm 5,000 maintained speed for couple seconds then rolled foot to floor. took half second for foot to hit floor boost hit 32psi 1.5 seconds later. over boost spark cut is at 32psi hit it so fast i thought i had a engine miss. drive pressure was 8 psi over boost. There is more btu in diesel but the afr is close to gas but lpg is really odd.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on January 05, 2016, 06:55:05 PM
in a month or so I will know if a external waist gate is needed with out a doubt. but 2 other 2.3 lima tubo guys believe it's needed on there builds. but when your using pneumatic control how do you know for sure your vgt is open all the way.

Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: hakcenter on January 05, 2016, 09:14:12 PM
No way of telling, more over, over speed is as simple as not opening the veins fast enough to the shaft speed increase.

I and a few others can atest that, even hitting you're target RPM then 'magically' going full open, will not stop it from over accelerating.

Good video here to watch, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgU6epI3C3A

Where you can see there is hardly if any correlation to shaft speed and boost. Making boost a non ideal parameter. Shaft speed rpm is the single most important factor for controlling the VGT. It can sense load, etc etc.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: Rx7man on January 06, 2016, 02:00:39 AM
I really really wish Holset would publish decent compressor maps!.. that would make life much easier.

A small increase in shaft speed can yield a large increase in boost, and it's not terribly flow dependent. 

I'll be able to tell you folks more on how mine is working now that the sensor works again... I have been limiting my full throttle boost to 30 PSI, and for now I don't need more.. even 25 PSI would be sufficient to keep the EGT's at acceptable levels
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on January 06, 2016, 08:37:25 AM
Yeah good compressor maps would be priceless. i don't have a problem with over speed. I think I run up the surge line until 5k rpm. If i remember correctly i hit 112k once but engine was turning around 7k.
I have a 58mm wheel and housing ready to go in but need to get megasquirt working first.
i really think a 3L to 4L gas engine is a great fit for this turbo for street use.
I would expect 10psi boost at 2500rpm.
I think on gas anything over 400hp needs external wastegate.
But that will change depending on the pressure ratio. a large low boost engine will need one before a small high boost engine. I think.
i agree shaft speed is the best way to tell how much energy the turbo is absorbing. Typically at constant boost as air flow is increased shaft speed has to increase also.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: Rx7man on January 06, 2016, 08:54:09 AM
Coming from rotary engines, I know that a 1.3L engine at 3000 RPM can spool a T66 turbo (66mm inducer) for about 500RWHP.. and by 6000 RPM will spool about a 90mm turbo (900 RWHP).. they have a very strong exhaust pulse..
Diesels have MUCH smaller turbine housings to help them spool the same kind size of turbo.

You're right that additional flow does require more shaft speed, but not a whole lot more... you can increase the flow by 50% but only need 20% more shaft speed to maintain boost
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on January 06, 2016, 03:30:35 PM
Did you see that 13b on youtube with a he351ve on it think he was getting 12 psi boost free revving engine.
I think a p ported 13b with a he451ve would be awesome.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: Rx7man on January 06, 2016, 07:26:05 PM
I heard p ported engines weren't that good with a turbo, but perhaps some technology has changed.  I can't watch videos from home.

I used to work at a rotary performance shop, https://www.youtube.com/user/Rx7man/videos (near the bottom) you'll see a blue/green FD on the dyno, that was my car before it got dialed in and before the new engine... the white car was a 3 rotor putting about 750 HP down and burning the tires off doing it... one of my coworkers at the shop had an identical engine to mine, he put down 875 RWHP @ 45 PSI (race gas) and daily drove the car.. he had 50,000 miles on the engine when it cracked a housing at the track.. I also have some videos of a supercharged 12A engine.. perhaps 2 videos?  I know one of them was with a really bagged out old engine.. it was carburated, and with the orientation of the charger I had serious tuning issues.. fuel would puddle in the supercharger, making it need a massive accelerator squirt to not bog, and as soon as it got going it would stumble from too much fuel.  The new engine I built is the one that would go into the sprint car but with a turbo.. I was thinking a CT26 from a 7mGTE supra (buddy has one, with the manifold I built)
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 09, 2016, 09:18:16 PM
After going to arduino control i don't think a waist gate is needed.
around position 700 is my best spool. around 500 runs close to 1to1.
Have only gone to around 300hp, found my fan is kissing my radiator at high rpm. ::)
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: Rx7man on February 10, 2016, 09:02:44 AM
I have a piece of expanded metal grate in front of my rad.. Fan hub bearing came off once and thrashed it good.. next one a fan blade broke off.. again thrashed it good.. so I put it in there as a bit of insurance.. got tired of replacing radiators.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 11, 2016, 08:59:24 PM
plastic blades are flexing over 2"to kiss radiator. started happening after i tightened the fan belt.
think i''l pull fan off falcon to put on ranger. ive been wanting a brushless fan for the falcon. use pwm to change fan speed.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: Rx7man on February 12, 2016, 08:55:30 AM
wow... that's a lot of flex

Any chance of just underdriving them
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 12, 2016, 05:00:26 PM
good idea ill check my spare pulleys
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: Rx7man on February 14, 2016, 12:10:34 AM
Perhaps if you just had a fan that was either stronger, or had less angle it would work better too
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 17, 2016, 10:44:22 AM
Went electric had 1 sitting on shelf that would fit. Should help my ac during summer at idle. mechanical fan working from 700 rpm through 7500 rpm. is asking for problems.
If I ever need to tow heavy load up long hill at low speeds i'll switch back.
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: Rx7man on February 17, 2016, 03:56:33 PM
If you need to tow heavy up hills.. GET A DODGE :P
Title: Re: 3.4L VGT Tacoma build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 17, 2016, 04:05:33 PM
or borrow my dads 7.3 lol