Lil' Blackbox

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: slow67 on February 25, 2016, 02:00:25 PM

Title: Another Gasser build
Post by: slow67 on February 25, 2016, 02:00:25 PM
Looking forward to trying out the LBB!
Going on a 4.8L GM engine in a retro-fit. Currently have a HE451VE slated to go on it, but also just picked up an HE561VE as well (should be a 71/102 compressor 86/80 turbine wheel).
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: Rx7man on February 26, 2016, 02:38:10 PM
Sounds cool!  Welcome aboard :)  Keep us posted on how it goes
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: slow67 on February 26, 2016, 05:01:01 PM
Thanks! I'm looking forward to it. This motor is a turd N/A. I know the big one should be close to an S471, so it should be a little work for my little 4.8L to spool (if it wasn't VGT). It comes off of the big cummins ISX.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: me78569 on February 26, 2016, 09:00:50 PM
Not gonna lie I want that 561. 

I Need a reason to step up to a triple disc converter
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: slow67 on February 26, 2016, 09:07:26 PM
Yeah i found it a couple of days ago (cheeeaaaap). Really anything smaller is futile on a gas V8.

My gasser already has a triple disk and it flashes to 2800 on motor (I've got a built 4L80E). I bet I can make it surge with the converter locked up  8)

I guess I'll be the guinea pig on the 561s for the lilbb. I haven't heard of anyone using it with stock cummins computers with them, I've only seen people use the 551 which has the air cylinder stock.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 26, 2016, 09:40:16 PM
sweet another gasser. And big vgt. Man I looked for a HE451ve for a long. Is it the 64mm 93mm compressor?
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 26, 2016, 09:47:45 PM
mine has the 86 80 turbine but 73.6mm inducer and 105.8mm exducer. Off a volvo is all I know got her for $200 shipped. but no actuator. In the middle making a He351ve actuator fit my he5??ve.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: slow67 on February 26, 2016, 09:49:10 PM
I don't have the 561 in my hands yet (in the mail), so I haven't measured the wheels.

Yeah the 451 is a 64/93 compressor and 76/67 turbine.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 26, 2016, 10:11:39 PM
i wanted the he451 for my 289
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 26, 2016, 10:32:50 PM
did you find a 12v version?
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: me78569 on February 27, 2016, 07:02:05 AM
I have been keeping my eye open for one for awhile, I think my wife might kill me.....but it would be worth it
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: Rx7man on February 27, 2016, 08:32:09 AM
I think the 561 would be something else in my old Rx7... might take a little while to spool it even with the vgt, but it would be something freaky when it hit
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 27, 2016, 09:44:33 AM
13b will spool it they spool the hx60 around 5500
but you could always do a compound set up. Vgt widens our power band alot.
 the compressor is limiting factor now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jXTAIBLWDQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jXTAIBLWDQ)
Still waiting to find a dyno chart of 5.0 m2 setup.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 27, 2016, 09:50:39 AM
for the 2 rotor he351ve for street. 600hp range and he451 for track 850hp.
i figure my he5??ve is good tell around 1200hp
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 27, 2016, 12:02:58 PM
I was wrong on the he451ve 800hp maxed got 3 charts for he561 yellow blue and purple
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: slow67 on February 27, 2016, 01:50:54 PM
I can't tell because of the glare, how many lb/min is the he561 good to? I knew the he451 was good to 80lb/min.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 27, 2016, 05:33:39 PM
there in the second picture no glare were you want to look
100lb to 120lbs at a 3.0 pressure ratio
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: Rx7man on February 27, 2016, 06:32:14 PM
I think if you had that big a turbo on a rotary, you'd benefit from trimming the outside of the compressor wheel a bit... faster spoolup at the expense of peak pressure ratio... Lets face it.. No gasser will take 5:1 PR without being built of unobtanium.

The HX5A looks like it would make a good Big block turbo... Massive air flow but not huge pressure ratio
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: slow67 on February 27, 2016, 07:00:02 PM
Thanks! I was looking at the wrong map. ~115lb/min is stout! This turbo looks like a great match (on the compressor side) for a typical small block.

I guess the jury is still out on the turbine side though (that turbine is tiny compared to many modern turbos capable of similar amounts of airflow). I can't seem to find any turbine flow maps on Holsets.

My math says at 10psi (where I will start boost-wise), the wastegate will be open by 4,000 rpm.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 27, 2016, 11:25:33 PM
A gasser built just like diesel or aircraft 4340 steel crank and rods.
With high octane fuel will take the boost.
If you think about it the diesels are the hardest combustion to handle there a detonation engine.
the fastest 2.3 lima i know of runs over 64 psi boost.
Diesel engine will always be king of boost.
In 1909 Dr. Buchi was running 71psig intake manifold pressure on a diesel.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 27, 2016, 11:50:27 PM
Holset turbine flow very well. On my 2.3 with the he351ve running 1to1 is no problem on a log manifold. the he351 has a 60mm comp inducer and 60mm turbine exducer. so your he561 will have no problem doing the same. I'm at least 2 months away from test drive on my big vgt.

My biggest hurdle was getting my home made manifold to take the heat and weight.
I add flex joints to handle expansion and built it all from 304 ss with extra straps to hold the turbos weight.
So far this has been holding up at 30psig boost. my fuel pressure sensor limits me from running higher boost. but i also don't think my stock rods and crank can take much more.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: Rx7man on February 28, 2016, 09:44:29 AM
I was referring to the limitation of the fuel because of preignition more than the strength of the internals.  Most boost I've seen was about 45 PSI on race gas.. In a 1.3L rotary it worked out to 875 RWHP.

That manifold was made out of stainless steel steam tubing, which is nice, thick stuff designed for extreme applications
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 28, 2016, 10:21:21 AM
e85 builds are pushing over 60psi
next time you have good internet speed check this one out blows my mind.
64psi boost 1233hp 2.0L vw golf all wheel drive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCKZGsYuZow
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: slow67 on February 28, 2016, 01:17:54 PM
Here ya go. Stock GM block, crank, rods, pistons, and heads (although ported).  40lbs of boost on methanol. I think 2800lbs and a single 88mm. 

SGMP No Mercy 5.  Stock bottom end 5.3. 4.83 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/w0_vMehh400)
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 28, 2016, 01:29:11 PM
OK what's your 4.8 going in?
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: slow67 on February 28, 2016, 01:51:33 PM
Its already going (in N/A form).

1981 Chevy C10 Longbed, drive by wire (stock GM PCM), 4L80E (billet input shaft, billet forward hub), 2800 stall (10" Nissan core) triple disk.

Cold A/C, and Flex fuel also.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 28, 2016, 07:20:03 PM
got my actuator mounted he351ve on he5??ve
had to flip arm down to get everything to clear.
Welded extension on turbo for actuator to mount to
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: slow67 on February 28, 2016, 09:35:56 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 29, 2016, 12:45:47 PM
does your big vgt have coolant ran through your actuator like the he351ve?
My he561 came with freeze plugs where coolant would run.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: slow67 on February 29, 2016, 01:28:48 PM
The HE451 has plugs and sepwrate coolant paths. I will let you know when the HE561 gets here, it should arrive by Friday.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 29, 2016, 02:57:54 PM
Well shoot I'll loop my inter cooler lines through it. Was hoping to be done.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: Rx7man on February 29, 2016, 05:01:28 PM
Nice job.. Good welds, and I know how hard they are
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: 65fpvmustang on February 29, 2016, 09:23:38 PM
 Got a nice turbo blanket and ram air blows on actuator.
I can't see coolant doing much it's only on the one side.
If i add something it should be to the outside surface by the exhaust.
Title: Re: Another Gasser build
Post by: Rx7man on February 29, 2016, 11:21:20 PM
Watched the vids.. that VW was nuts :)