Author Topic: Help with purchase for build  (Read 283 times)

Offline Diesel Newby

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on: March 09, 2019, 08:27:33 AM
Hi all, i am running a 4m41 engine (3.2 liter turbo diesel) and I want to run a crazy compound setup. I want to use the HE351ve as the primary/smaller turbo and the He551v (with mechanical actuator) for the larger turbo.

I would like to buy the controller but i needed a few things:

1. live RPM and boost sensor (will be placed between turbos) for the HE551v, along the the sensors for the HE351ve.
2. Temp sensors for oil and air for both turbos.
3. A control for water pump to increase flow relative to temp. (controls the water flow rate over turbos and over water to air intercooler)
4. Break sensor (to dump boost slowly or quickly depending on how hard the break is pressed)
5. Curves for a 3.2 liter engine

Can the developer hook me up and what price, don't see a number to contact him. I would even buy the updated unit from a member who knows to mod it.  Someone let me know, thanks....



Offline hakcenter

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Reply #1 on: March 11, 2019, 10:53:13 AM
How do you intend to redirect exhaust from the primary to the secondary ? The VGT housings do not have wastegates and redirecting flow is going to require a great bit of coding since you'll want to resize based on speed, and compound pressure.

IMHO a twin 351ve would be simpler and probably more efficient. You can simply just double the cm^2 size, so 3cm on a single, is 6cm on twin's. Also simplifying control, you would just need 1 controller, and use just 1 shaft sensor and share CANBUS info.

The LBB isn't an EMS system, it is a system designed to control the Holset VGTs. So anything outside of what the turbo already has on it, I don't provide. If you need external sensors, for monitoring, which have no direct imput on how you want to control the turbo then I simply can't help there. The LBB is designed with 5v input in mind. So any sensor that has an output that you want to directly impact turbo resizing, that's well within the systems ability to integrate but I do not provide these sensors. There is only 1 extra ISR so you can count an external 5v square wave (engine rpm counting), there are 3 5v input / outputs (switches / relays control), and 3 5v ADCs (measuring 5v signals, tps / boost sensor).

AMP 2 Corinthians 8:21
For we take thought beforehand and aim to be honest and absolutely above suspicion, not only in the sight of the Lord but also in the sight of men.



Offline Diesel Newby

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Reply #2 on: March 12, 2019, 08:32:39 AM
Thanks for responding...

Question
How do you intend to redirect exhaust from the primary to the secondary ?

Answer
After the quick spool, the primary would  use the boost reading from the sensor placed at its intake to slowly open up the vines to allow excess to pass as boost builds, due to the secondary turbo. The secondary will open in response to the preset boost pressure on actuator. (reading will be taken from a sensor behind the primary turbo)


example/setting 1:

351ve maintains 3 psi at idle, quickly spools to 35 psi at the intake when accelerating (while lighting up the 551v), then then backs off based on pre-boost pressure (if pre-boost is 10 psi, 351 adjusts/works less to keep final reading to intake at 35 psi). The system should also do the reverse when the secondary is loosing boost, but no break has been applied.

However then the he551v reaches 15 psi the 351ve changes to simply doubling whatever it reads on the incoming sensors without creating a bottle neck, the rest with be controlled mechanically.

I hope that helps to clarify my intentions....



Offline Rx7man

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Reply #3 on: March 13, 2019, 02:00:15 PM
It sounds like this is something you're going to have to develop yourself to get it to work right...

I don't get the purpose of the brake sensor and the need to dump boost, nor do you really need temp sensors for oil and water on both turbos... the HE351 has a built in temp sensor for the coolant, and that's going to be really close to the oil temperature anyhow... You may want a temp sensor on the compressor outlet to control water flow in an air-to-water intercooler though.

'94 dodge, Colt Cam, head worked, NV5600, 3.55's, SB clutch, Ford manual hubs w. hawk brakes, custom flatdeck, custom aluminum bumper, cab off restoration, totally new engine, Mahle pistons @19:1..HE351VE with 67mm turbine and 67x95mm compressor
440hp/1000 ft lb @ 2400 RPM


Offline Rx7man

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Reply #4 on: March 13, 2019, 02:02:01 PM
Honestly I think these turbos would be too big for a 3.2L diesel, especially the HE551!... If anything I'd say go with a smaller turbo, perhaps an HX35 for the small, and then maybe use an upgraded HE351 for the low pressure

'94 dodge, Colt Cam, head worked, NV5600, 3.55's, SB clutch, Ford manual hubs w. hawk brakes, custom flatdeck, custom aluminum bumper, cab off restoration, totally new engine, Mahle pistons @19:1..HE351VE with 67mm turbine and 67x95mm compressor
440hp/1000 ft lb @ 2400 RPM


Offline Diesel Newby

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Reply #5 on: March 13, 2019, 05:02:35 PM
Comment:

It sounds like this is something you're going to have to develop yourself to get it to work right...

Response:

I totally agree that this will need alot of adjustments after the initial install and need to be tuned post installation.. (just needed the unit with the basic setup and we will tune from there)
 
Comment:
I don't get the purpose of the brake sensor and the need to dump boost, nor do you really need temp sensors for oil and water on both turbos... the HE351 has a built in temp sensor for the coolant, and that's going to be really close to the oil temperature anyhow... You may want a temp sensor on the compressor outlet to control water flow in an air-to-water intercooler though.

1. The brake sensor was meant to respond to hard a beak situation...  (you never know which idiot will swing out on you)

2. The air temp sensor will be used for the water to air cooler (was just hoping not have to run it on full all the time or manually adjust it).

3. Thanks for the update on turbo temp sensor and the oil.... (first time working with VGTs so forgot that)

4. Funny you mentioned the hx35, I was looking for one but ran into the he551v at a steal......  If i cant get the 351 to high it up i will sell back or keep it for later
    project (the guy almost gave it away)  I really hope we can get it up though

...............THANKS FOR ALL THE FEEDBACK SO FAR...........




Offline hakcenter

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Reply #6 on: March 14, 2019, 07:54:03 AM
Sorry but you really haven't answered my first question. How are you going to physically redirect exhaust flow from the primary to the secondary ? Wastegate ? Or are you going to allow exhaust flow from the primary outlet into the secondary inlet ? A big concern I have is overrun on the primary. Certainly a 25cm^2 housing is gigantic and I'm not over running my 351 on a 5.9 but I don't have a 551 in compound. That is a toooon of air n power.

IMHO I think twin is the best application for these VGTs. Single controller, simpler piping. Combined airflow. The idea behind compounds is to get a giant turbo going and I get that. But 2 351ve's is like 120lbs/min of airflow....... That's more than a single s400 which is 115lbs/min. Now think you do that with 30-35psi, not 75psi... I just think it's the best route and it's what I plan to do to my vehicle if I ever get the chance.

AMP 2 Corinthians 8:21
For we take thought beforehand and aim to be honest and absolutely above suspicion, not only in the sight of the Lord but also in the sight of men.



Offline Diesel Newby

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Reply #7 on: March 14, 2019, 04:48:19 PM
Question:
How are you going to physically redirect exhaust flow from the primary to the secondary ? Wastegate ?

Answer:
Going to allow exhaust flow from the primary outlet into the secondary inlet....

Comment:
IMHO I think twin is the best application for these VGTs. Single controller, simpler piping. Combined airflow.

Response:

Not challenging that, but I already have the two units mentioned (lets see if we can knock our heads together to make it work)......  I remain open to changing the setup, but i would like to try it before to throwing my hands up. 

I would prefer my next major spend be the controller, if it fails i could reprogram the LBB to work with the single 351ve, unit I can and move on with a new turbo/setup..




Offline Rx7man

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Reply #8 on: March 15, 2019, 09:46:51 AM
I found on my truck the HE351, despite being a nominal 25cm housing at wide open, the choke point is too small a turbine in it with too many blades.. If you went with a 64mm 10 blade I think that would be a happy medium, I have the 67mm 10 blade and that's a bit big honestly (on a 5.9L at about 500 hp)... When I had the 60mm setup I was wide open at about 2400 RPM.. On a smaller engine I think it might work well though as it is.

The thing about controlling two turbos is the entire logic will have to change, and to do that effectively you're going to have to know or learn some C programming skills..

'94 dodge, Colt Cam, head worked, NV5600, 3.55's, SB clutch, Ford manual hubs w. hawk brakes, custom flatdeck, custom aluminum bumper, cab off restoration, totally new engine, Mahle pistons @19:1..HE351VE with 67mm turbine and 67x95mm compressor
440hp/1000 ft lb @ 2400 RPM


Offline Diesel Newby

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Reply #9 on: March 15, 2019, 04:11:25 PM
Comment:

The thing about controlling two turbos is the entire logic will have to change, and to do that effectively you're going to have to know or learn some C programming skills..

Thanks for the feedback. Is their someone here could pay to look the new code? Do I simply need ask for a controller with curves for the 3.2 and get studying on C+?



Offline hakcenter

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Reply #10 on: March 16, 2019, 08:24:09 AM
Curves don't come out of thin air, it's trial and error. That's the whole point of making variables tunable.

I would suggest you look the wiki over quite extensively. There's a whole section for the tuning application for android > android_app [Lil' Blackbox]

If you want to get into the actual coding on the device, there's a section with some good info to get your feet wet > common_code_v2 [Lil' Blackbox]
You'll need to download the common code, the arduino ide, and the libraries associated with the sketches. Import them into the IDE, and start poking around to get the jyst of how the code flows.

There are a lot of tunable variables just within the setup section, that you can adjust to drastically alter how the controller works. I've written a lot of custom code for my personal controller. It integrates the 5v square wave from the crank signal to count engine rpm. From that I'm using a basic 2d map of engine rpm to vane position until turbo rpms exceed 105,000 then it falls into the top end control section. I might go 3d mapping with engine rpm / turbo rpm = position, however throttle response is pretty good and it would seem a bit over the top to do that.

AMP 2 Corinthians 8:21
For we take thought beforehand and aim to be honest and absolutely above suspicion, not only in the sight of the Lord but also in the sight of men.



Offline Rx7man

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Reply #11 on: March 20, 2019, 11:49:50 PM
If you're using it to control a single turbo I think you should be fine, but drastic changes in the programming itself will come along if you want to control 2 of them.

Second issue is that with the size of the HE551 you may run into compressor surge from lack of airflow due to the small engine.. that's a ways down the road though

'94 dodge, Colt Cam, head worked, NV5600, 3.55's, SB clutch, Ford manual hubs w. hawk brakes, custom flatdeck, custom aluminum bumper, cab off restoration, totally new engine, Mahle pistons @19:1..HE351VE with 67mm turbine and 67x95mm compressor
440hp/1000 ft lb @ 2400 RPM