I was pushing my truck pretty hard yesterday.. I deliberately lugged it really hard from 1000 RPM in 5th up a hill.
How much boost can the turbo build? LOTS! My gauge only reads to 35 PSI... it was wrapped to the pin, which I think is somewhere around 43 PSI.. at 1500 RPM... and it didn't surge (very surprising), though it did bark once when I let off quickly.
What vane position were the vanes at at the start of the pull?
I didn't log that run.. my logging system has been glitchy/slow so I have to redesign it
like a fishing story without data log. ;)
Drive pressure and shaft speed is what I would be interested in.
haven't replaced the drive pressure sensor yet.. I'm sure it was way up there though... I'm working on it... I have a lot of work to do and a steep learning curve trying to get what I want done in C rather than VB...
I did just make a new array class though that keeps track of it's own size and can grow and shrink if needed.. that will help me a LOT.
I once caught a fish...
thhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssssssssssssssssssssss big
hehehe.. yeah yeah :)... I'm working on a serious redesign of the program for V1.4.. still have some program flow kinks to work out, not sure how to solve them just yet...
i will say this pneumatic control sucks.
I figured it would be fine.
since they run pneumatic on big rigs off air brakes.
Even with running off an air compressor there will always be under and overshoot.
And flutter.
Put a restrictor valve in it.. You can get 1 way restrictor valves that are adjustable... a pair of them, one in each direction of flow, and that should help you a lot.
I don't know the exact setup you have, but if you have a double acting actuator, one of these on each port will really help you fine tune it
https://www.grainger.com/product/LEGRIS-Flow-Control-Regulator-1PFY5?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/1PFY5_AS01?$smthumb$
I used to do a lot of work with pneumatic systems... the machines I worked on were all air controlled.. Learned a lot about it getting them to do what I wanted them to do.
used those in hydraulic systems but didn't know they existed for pneumatic.
using mega squirt i have a 6x6 table for out of boost and a 8x8 table for in boost.
tables are off map and rpm.
Next step is closed loop with a target table and bias duty table.
You probably need some sort of PID loop, and perhaps a position feedback sensor (a TPS sensor could be modified to work)... it's evidently possible to do, just gotta figure it out.
when I was running pnumatic control after awhile the veins would not want to open, carbon build up.
i would still be screwing with it if it wasn't for you guys.
target table uses tps and rpm haven't gone full closed loop yet.
I really like using the electric controller. just using a pull up resistor with a low pass filter going to arduino.
ms3 pulls the signal low.
void setup(){
Serial.begin(115200); // Initialize Serial communications with computer to use serial monitor
//Set CAN mode and speed
CAN1.begin(mode, bitrate);
if ((CAN1.readMode () == mode) && (CAN1.readRate() == bitrate)) // Check to see if we set the Mode and speed correctly. For debugging purposes only.
{
Serial.println("CAN Initialization complete");
Serial.print ("CAN speed set to: ");
Serial.print (bitrate);
Serial.print ("kbit/s");
}
else
{
Serial.println("CAN Initialization failed");
Serial.println("CAN speed failed");
}
}
// Create a fuction to load and send an extended frame message
void extendedMessage(){
val = analogRead(potPin); // read the value from the sensor
outputValue = map(val, 0,1023, 750, 0); // the last two values are your limits -- you may need to adjust 880 full closed 0 full open 750=100 duty 375=50 duty 187=75 duty full open=30-0
byte lobyte = lowByte(outputValue);
byte hibyte = highByte(outputValue);
unsigned long ID = 0x0CFFC600; // Random Extended Message ID
byte length = 8; // Data length
byte data[] = { lobyte, hibyte, 0x01, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF };
CAN1.send (ID, extID, length, data); // Load message and send
// counter1++;
//byte data[2] = {0x02, 0x00}; //for recalibrating gearbox
}
// Finally arduino loop to execute above functions with a 500ms delay
void loop(){
extendedMessage();
delay(5);
Serial.print (outputValue);
In my "handy functions" thread I will be posting up the lookup tables I use.. they're still in development, but so far they work OK.. I want to add functionality to them to be able to read and write them to EEPROM easily.. I have a 1 dimensional version and a 2 dimensional version, and I'm still working on integrating the two
shaft rpm1 is turbo speed duty2 and pw2 is lpg injectors
boost check
injectors maxed check
traction good on 3 wheels 8)
should be 400 hp minimum
I want to make a 100hp per piston sticker
thinking 100hp x (picture of piston)
I'm surprised at the shaft speeds being that high for 17 PSI... I can't get them above 117000 and I've been pushing over 35 PSI
There are people that make 600 hp with these turbos.. I'd qualify for the 100hp/piston if I can pull it off.. can't say I'd object to making that kind of power, but the drivetrain parts are going to get expensive
88k for 17psi does that sound right it is a 58mm hybrid
at peak shaft speed i'm off the throttle alot it was spinnig 3rd wet pavment snow tires.
would not be surprised if boost was close to 40 psi 2.25" volvo fmic and partialy closed throttle.
thinking i'll add a spool passing switch.
was trying to do it in my map but it messes up my high speed cruise. no over drive
when setup a few seconds at 3500rpm will give 10psi as fast as i can open the throttle
i did a test at 4800 once smacked over boost limiter 32psi 1.7 seconds after opening the throttle.
I can make them at work during break color printed on vinyl.
Could make some 75hp
My buddy has a vinyl cutter.. I was thinking of making the modern Cummins "C" with HE351VGT printed underneath
around here no one knows what a he351ve is lots of 6.7 trucks.
But the ones ive talked to are cocky.
They'll know what it is when they see tail lights :)
yeah they will want one for there truck. :
hx20 80hp max flow
I need that for my lawn mower
I'd love to put that on my XR400.. it's about 40hp now, I could make a bunch more.. I'd be more willing to sacrifice an XR500, but with the dual carbs it would just become a nightmare.
I want one just to put on my desk.
That would be pretty cool.. My buddy has a 40hp turbocharged Kubota.. that's like an HX10..
I have a few Garrett T04E's and stuff that are pretty tiny.. they're about 130hp max units.. one from a Volvo as well.
I would love to try one of those out on a bike though.. Yeah, 400 hp in a streetbike that does 250 mph is cool, but a 80 hp dirt bike is something else too.
got my spool switch installed just zip tied below ball so i can push it with my thumb
will be interesting what shaft speeds i can get waiting to pass.
Read factory edis coils are ran at 4.0 ms dwell i have been running 3.1 ms and gaping plugs at .020" so she don't miss at 28 psi boost.
Looking forward to my after work drive. should get some nice data logs.
On my truck I implemented a kinda neat 'autobrake' feature, that when you're at cruise RPM or higher, and you let off the throttle, it'll close the turbo partially to brake, and it spools it up too to about 40-50,000 RPM (I can get 10 PSI if I'm at 2800 RPM), then it lights up real quick when I get back on the throttle.
Have you thought about a fuel cut. I read on ecomodders where a 5.9 was getting some crazy mpg.
He had a fuel cut switch on his shifter.
I have a fuel cut on ranger 3 second delay and tps and rpm min.
Good for 2-3 mpg where i live, nothing is flat.
If i could get 40k at 2800 I would be very excited.
It'll definitely be different on a gas than a diesel since a gas engine cuts the air supply.
Don't know how I'd go about implementing a fuel cut on my truck, or how it would save fuel... the governor will cut fuel anyhow if you let off the throttle at cruise RPM... What I did find saved a lot of fuel was to despool the turbo at cruise.. so when I'm under about 30% TPS and above 2000 RPM, the turbo is set to pretty much wide open, reducing drive pressure... I picked up a fair bit of mileage at highway speeds on flat ground with it.. I got 500 miles on a tank of mixed city/highway driving and thats with 4.10 gears.. Highway speeds were about 75mph, so I wasn't snailing along either.
I didn't know the gov would cut fuel below idle. So that guy was only cutting idle fuel when coasting.
I wouldn't ever cut engine in coast around here. Be a good way to see the bottom of a scenic canyon.
Are you using vgt closed for engine warm up?
You can cut fuel on a gas engine with no adverse effects, the engine is still turning and powering the steering, and creating vacuum for the brakes.. Most modern vehicles probably do that already.
I usually just hit the engine brake when it's cold.. I have to do some tweaking on it since the jake switch will double as a 'high boost' switch, so that when I'm preparing to pass, it'll spool the turbo up.. It'll probably do something like command to 50% of normal mode nozzle size. I have it implemented, but not tuned
spool switch is awesome
I can hit 50k at 3500 rpm 55mph maintaining speed. gives 5psi ready to rock
wanted to try dropping to second gear 4500 rpm but already scared crap out of son.
haha! I scared the fellow that I did the governor springs for I think.. nearly doing 4 wheel drifts on the side of a cliff might do it
I did a couple light pulls showed him how it brought the turbo shaft speed up.
I had just picked him up from his mom's and she messes with his head makes him think everything is better at her house. doesn't help he is 13 and cocky. So he wasn't impressed with the pull at 2800. He told me how fast his mom's hemi truck gets up to speed only thing the mpg suck. I explain how not many people work a gas engine this hard at this low of rpm.
So at the next straight I did the 3rd gear 3500 rpm to 4600 pull. hit 19 psi before i let off. Told him that was about 300hp maybe 350. Son "Wow that hurt my neck". We get to my favorite spot. at least a 1/4 mile uphill stretch slight turn to right leaving from a stop sign. I tell him to watch the tach. I run through the gears shifting at 4500 then tell him peak power is around 6500 rpm. There is another 150-200hp left.
Don't think i'll be hearing about the hemi anytime soon. ;D
Hehe, sounds like fun... Makes me miss my old Rx7.. handled like it was on rails, and 400 (more now) RWHP in 2500 lbs sure moves you.. 400hp was at 11 psi with a T68-1, I am going to try to convince my buddy to put a VGT on it.. the car started to spool around 3000, and it was full on by 3600 all the way to 7500
this should convince him. 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE5siUs3quQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE5siUs3quQ)
I can't watch videos from here.. I'll try and remember to watch it next time I get decent internet
he351ve on 13b 12 psi neutral rev
only thing is want to run air mass meter exhaust pressure changes messes with speed density.
I real think a 3L with he351 would be nice street car. something around 200hp NA.
but rotory's are the exception 13b be perfect fit. ;D
I have a street ported 12A that's got about 10 miles on it since it was rebuilt.. Had a supercharger on it, but I think a turbo would flow soooo much more.
I could definitely see how large changes in exhaust pressure could mess with speed density, though if your turbo acts consistently you should be able to find a happy medium.
You might have to limit the drive pressure to a certain amount over boost to prevent it from becoming a large factor?
I think the biggest problem about a 351 vgt on a 13B is once it's up to boost, I think you'd still need a wastegate.
I think this was the old, bagged out engine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DnwFnqO6I
And this one was the new engine, though it wasn't tuned yet, and had serious issues with fuel puddling, which causes all the bogs and bad idle.. If I was able to go EFI I'd have been able to solve those problems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwrpENRYf64
12a would be good if it has ceramic apex seals to take the heat.
my friend has a 13b rx7 nice paint and ground effects but china 54mm turbo.
i have been working on him for years to put a he351ve on it. he is a garret guy 6.0 power stroke is his truck. quick but not very reliable.
Ceramic seals are apparently no good for boost.. too brittle. it has 3mm steel seals. Buddy was running 45 PSI boost on steel 2mm seals (they were $200 a piece 10 years ago) and made 875 RWHP.. they can handle it if they're good seals.
I attached a pic of the turbo I had
I thought it was carbon that were to brittle. Ive Never built one. But 45 psi boost is a lot.
I wish I had a video of it.. it was his daily driver too (not at 45 PSI of course).. I think he got into the 9's in a 2nd gen FC Rx7 on slicks.
The seals that were in both my engine and the one I just mentioned were "super seals".. 2 piece 2mm.. $1200 a set.
vgt position 750 spools slower then 600 for me.
Also anything below 300 is waste gate for me.
There's a point where the increasing drive pressure reduces the volume too much.. and that depends partly on turbine speed too.. Position 750 probably spools faster up to 50K, but after that you need the total flow, and if the back pressure is too high the engine won't produce the flow.. it's a fine line.
Anyhow, I took a buddy's buddy for a ride tonight... Buddy was on a Can-am Commander 1000(cc) side-by-side.. his buddy has a 7.3L ford, and he rode with me on about a 1.5 mile stretch of dirt road... I gave them a courteous head start as the driveway was REALLY rough.. so they were about 400 yards ahead of me when I got onto the road... Yeah.. I caught up to them. Then we went up a deactivated logging road.. I took my time on it, crossditches are a SOB if you hit them at speed, and there was a lot of rock on the road too.. We turned ourselves around and I led the way back.. Besides eating my dust and coal, they had NO chance of keeping up with me (I put it in 4x4 on the way back) Buddy that was riding with me was REALLY impressed.. said he felt really comfortable with my driving but the truck was darned scarey.. He wants a 12V and a lil'bb I think now :).. Guys that were behind me were.. They were in awe of the sound.
It was good times!
Ya I'm pretty sure we can get to 500whp with this kind of control on the turbo.
Mustang do you not have a lbb or anything but megasquirt to control the turbo ? On my truck there's no way I get to 125k @ 700 and not completely overshoot shaft speed by a long shot.
@ 65k shaft I have it walking down to minimum 600 @ 105k, that line there is crucial for ridiculous speed.
my buddy from BD says guys put out 600rwhp in the 6.7's with it, so we might have to scale that number down a touch on a 5.9, but it's certainly a good ballpark. I'm dying to get new injectors and a 98 pump on mine so I can throw more fuel at it.. I am certain my injectors are a seriously limiting factor right now considering no fuel plate and no smoke except when stupidly lugging it.
ms3 sends a duty signal to arduino pull up resistor with low pass filter. ms3 pulls signal low.
it's a 58mm compressor i pieced together. He300 housing machined for 58mm hx40 comp wheel
also the 600 position is not exact the 750 is but it's the only number i'm sure about.
at the 127k rpm vgt was position 600 in spool and 270 stopped boost climb
I actually hit 129690 shaft speed but billet 58mm comp with large mwe slot
It will be interesting what closing the mwe slot does to turbo rpm.
but about 400hp @ 4500 by injector duty.
585whp with 3900 rpm red line 6.7 stock he351ve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0daT_9xI7lg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0daT_9xI7lg)
Can't watch the vid from here, like usual, but 585 sounds about right from what I hear..
I imagine it's a 007 smoke screen
smoke screen most likely but 585whp awesome
so around 650? at the crank.
like to see his shaft speed lol
I haven't been able to get over 130,000 on my truck yet...
585 hp on a stock he351ve...... wow I dunno if I like that. I am sure the turbo likes it even less.
He must have a wicked wheel on it ha
they said it was a base line test before upgrading turbo
here is the upgraded 68mm vnt turbo pull 829 rwhp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyjYStvugt4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyjYStvugt4)
Quote from: me78569 on March 23, 2016, 02:10:27 PM
585 hp on a stock he351ve...... wow I dunno if I like that. I am sure the turbo likes it even less.
He must have a wicked wheel on it ha
My buddy from BD says 600 is doable on the stock 351... if I'm anywhere close to 500 with the undersized injectors I have I'm quite sure I could get a bit more out of it
doable is one thing, but long term reliably? I would imagine that the turbo would really be hurting above 500. hard to know without a good map from holset.
I just don't see it. I am sitting at 450hp on a good day, I am seeing the signs of pushing the turbo to the limits, shaft speeds, egts, boost etc. I suppose if you were to spin another 1000 rpm and keep torque up you would get to 600 hp without too much issue.
EGTS are in check, but at the upper limit of what I would call safe for anyone to drive it.
It depends on the engine too I guess.. an engine that breathes better is going to require less effort from the turbo to make the power.. I'm finding heat soak in the intercooler is my big enemy for EGT's, I run cool but when I tow heavy and have to push 30+ lbs of boost my intercooler can't keep up. I notice this because after a hard pull, the EGT's stay high for a long time and just gradually come down.
This is a big part of the reason I got the 4 channel thermocouple probe... I will have pre and post IC temps which will tell me a lot about what's going on.. Perhaps I'll even add a pre IC pressure sensor to measure IC pressure drop.
I run a tiny fmic it's bigger then my radiator but a ranger radiator is small compared to yours.
Ive never seen 150f mat while in boost. Granted I don't stay in boost long brakes can't take it.
It will be interesting when your therm couples are hooked up.
You start to notice it when you are pulling 8 ton up a 10% grade... there's no way you can load a Ranger hard enough to heat soak, and you probably aren't pushing the boost either, and as thermodynamics commands, more pressure = more temperature
Wait pressure makes heat? Egads notify the press
Thankfully it does otherwise a diesel would never run :)
so air temp 75 f mat climbed to 114 f during 8 sec pull 28psi looks like it would have kept climbing past 150 f
at 18 psi and around 22 lbs/min I run around 20 f over outside air temp
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm (http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm)
fun calculator for inter cooler
I just don't think it's inter cooler heat soak. there is not that much mass there.
i think it's your gauge or egt probe is slow to come down. thermal
but if I was out of inter cooler I would set up water injection.
some guys spray water on inter cooler using a washer pump
If i remember right 1 degree drop in intake temp drops egt 1 degree.
at 40PSI the compressor output temp is 464F!!.. so yeah, that's cooking hot and then some.
80% efficient intercooler will put it back down to 157F...
I think I might look at a water/ meth injection kit... I'm positive my plenum temps are WAY higher than 157 after a long, hard pull.. but a probe there will tell me everything.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100PSI-DC12V-4L-Min-Solid-Electric-Diaphragm-Water-Pump-Self-Priming-for-RV-Boat-/281366070408?hash=item4182b98488:g:3MMAAOSwaNBUbg0f (http://www.ebay.com/itm/100PSI-DC12V-4L-Min-Solid-Electric-Diaphragm-Water-Pump-Self-Priming-for-RV-Boat-/281366070408?hash=item4182b98488:g:3MMAAOSwaNBUbg0f)
I have one of these cheap pumps on ranger. I used it a lot before I setup the dual fuel.
I only ran water thru it, and drained it in winter. The misting nozzle I got from my rx7 bud.
He had extras from his snow kit.
made huge difference on pump gas but killed power on lpg I think I needed to run alot more timing.
I run 14 degrees at +30 psi boost I probably would have to run around 25 degrees advanced at 30 psi boost to use water on lpg.
If I'd run windshield washer fluid I could leave it over winter...
That pump looks good.. I have Nitrous fogger nozzles I'd probably use for the injection side of it as well as some other types of misting nozzles with super fine spray patterns... I think I'd leave the pump on full time (it has a cutout switch) and have a solenoid controlling duty cycle. How much water or methanol should you be injecting? I've never played with it, but know it works wonders on my old Rx7.. temps are near ambient in the plenum.
http://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm (http://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm)
I have the blue nozzle and go full flow straight water above 18 psi boost on pump gas.
I forgot to mention the solenoid on mine. duty starts around 5psi just to clear air from the line.
One book says for diesels up to 30% of the diesel fuel used.
http://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/190.htm (http://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/190.htm) the diesel info
my rx7 bud runs propane vapor injection on his 6.0 diesel
we talked about liquid injection to cool the intake, but he was really happy with his vapor.
I looked at liquid injection for my v8. It looked like i wouldn't need a inter cooler at 14psi boost the lpg would provide enough cooling.
the solenoid looks a whole lot like an Nitrous solenoid... I did have a couple of them at one time... haven't seen them in a while.. I'll have to dig around for them.
I think the biggest challenge with liquid LPG injection would be metering.. and not getting bubbles of vapor messing it up.. it may need an additional pump to keep the pressure high enough to be stable.
roush uses what looks like a standard gasoline fuel pump but in the lpg tank. then run 40 psi over tank pressure.
Propane is coming down from winter price $1.35 last week.
That sounds reasonable... you're quoting propane price per gallon right?... 2 years ago it was $1.20 a liter here.. currently around $.70 I think.. The old chevy truck gets towed into town once a year to fill up... it's just the old farm truck that the cows have caved in all the panels on.. not roadworthy anymore but still handy around here.
My buddy swears by propane injection on diesels.. I'd like to know just how much in propane he spends to save a MPG or two in diesel... if it's really a paying proposition.
yeah per gallon diesel is $2.60 and gas $2.42 for 87
I would like to know also what the gains or loss in mpg is when ran on a diesel.
Thing is water meth also is supposed to help mpg also but does almost the opposite to the burn compared to lpg.
I could see water meth helping mpg if timing is added.
I really think lpg injection on a diesel only gives power not mpg.
I think the mpg increase guys see is just trading one fuel for the other.
More btu's in diesel.
Yeah,.. Perhaps it has a little bit of a catalyst effect, which would be where the extra MPG comes from, but I think you'd have to have it on a dyno with some calibrated equipment to be able to really determine that... I was thinking if I had a small evaporator I could have it before the turbo, and by tweaking the evaporator diaphragm spring I could tune it to operate just on a venturi effect and only when the engine is drawing a certain amount of air.
http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-5HPR-40-Adjustable-Regulator/dp/B0033JF0GE/ref=pd_sim_86_6?ie=UTF8&dpID=41MoiVvoTSL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0M7XK377NY89KKZT2KFN (http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-5HPR-40-Adjustable-Regulator/dp/B0033JF0GE/ref=pd_sim_86_6?ie=UTF8&dpID=41MoiVvoTSL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0M7XK377NY89KKZT2KFN)
I think he is running a 0-40 psi regulator. I think he is pre turbo injection. with a boost switch to turn on a solenoid.
The orifice and reg set his power boost.
If he had your skills with Arduino things would be different.
I was just thinking of using a large BBQ regulator, if plumbed pre turbo (definitely easiest) it would be pretty simple.. A step up would be to use a real evaporator and venturi. I don't think using an arduino for that would make a lot of sense, at least not unless you're doing liquid injection.. a mechanical system perhaps with an electronically controlled arming solenoid would be easy and effective.
I think you overestimate my arduino skillz
I was thinking a pwm based on rpm and manifold pressure.
or rpm tps based
had a nice pull today but lost the data log laptop shut off before I saved it.
My boost miss is still there. I let off the throttle to about 75% and she took off and ran.
Ran hard spun tire on dry clean pavement 3rd gear. I think i'm driving compressor in to surge.
i was looking at a 4500 rpm pull and shaft speed was 129k compared to a 6200 rpm same boost 28 psi more flow but only 121k turbo shaft speed.
I set ms3 to start data log to sd card at 20 psi boost. just have to remember to plug sd card into ms3.
I'm rather upset about losing data log I spun her to red line at around 30 psi boost.